GRTiQ Podcast: 142 Tegan Kline

The following podcast is for informational purposes only. The contents of this podcast do not constitute tax, legal, or investment advice. Take responsibility for your own decisions, consult with the proper professionals, and do your own research.

Tegan Kline (00:18):

The Graph is expanding beyond just subgraphs, which have gained mass adoption to all data. And what this says about the future is that The Graph will solidify that position as the internet’s unbreakable foundation of data used for decades, generations to come.

Nick (01:04):

Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today I’m speaking with Tegan Kline, the new CEO and a co-founder at Edge & Node, a core dev team working on The Graph. Tegan’s impressive career began on Wall Street working in investment banking for such notable firms as Barclays and Bank of America and Merrill Lynch. However, she left Wall Street in 2017 and went to work full-time in web3. Since then, she’s risen to become a thought leader in the industry and has been featured in Tech Crunch, Forbes, Bloomberg, Fortune, and CNBC. If you’re a dedicated listener of the podcast, then you’ll recall that we did an in-depth interview with Tegan for episode number three, where she shared a lot of her personal background and professional experiences, her journey into web3, and the fascinating story about how she went to work on The Graph.

(01:52):

We’re fortunate to welcome Tegan back for another interview just days after The Graph released a new R&D roadmap aptly named the New Era. During this interview, Tegan talks about her role as CEO at Edge & Node, the Sunrise of Decentralized Data initiative, the launch of New Era, artificial intelligence, the future of web3, and so much more. Tegan also agreed to support a special AMA for this episode, so during the interview you might hear a few listener questions. But a lot more questions were asked than made it into the recorded interview, so we encourage you to visit the show notes for a special ongoing AMA with Tegan, and we’ll be sharing some of these questions and answers on our Twitter account so be sure to follow. I started today’s interview by congratulating Tegan on accepting her new role as CEO at Edge & Node.

Tegan Kline (02:41):

Yeah, so Nick, this is actually the first podcast I’ve done since being appointed as CEO. I wanted to save that for GRTiQ. So here we are. I’m excited.

Nick (02:50):

Well, let’s talk more about that. Let’s start there. You were a recently appointed CEO of Edge & Node, and I think it’d be fun for listeners to know a little bit about that decision process for you and what was going on at the time. What can you tell us?

Tegan Kline (03:03):

Yes, this is really what was just needed for Edge & Node at this time. I think Brandon and Yaniv did a great job of getting us through zone one and making sure the protocol was up and running and ready to go and ready for the masses. And now that it is, we need kind of a business leader. They’re very much strong engineering leaders, but we need a business leader at this time.

(03:22):

I would say I did a lot of speaking with a lot of different people. Obviously I have a husband, I have a coach, and I just wanted to make sure it was the best thing for Edge & Node, for The Graph, but also for myself personally. Thankfully everyone supported me in that decision, and it’s been great so far. I’ve been really focused on Edge & Node and kind of doing company surgery and what’s needed to be done. It’s been over 100 now, so the first 100 days that was my focus and now I can kind of go externally now that the core base of what was needed for the company is in a good place.

Nick (03:57):

It’s incredible and there’s a lot of excitement. Of course you have a huge following on Twitter, but within The Graph ecosystem as well there’s a lot of Tegan Kline fans. I think the news was very well received. As you mentioned there, you’re the third CEO coming in at Edge & Node, and so I thought it would be fun just for the community to get some inside baseball as you think about the different leadership styles. And so to maybe start, what will you take from the leadership styles that you saw in Yaniv Tal and Brandon Ramirez?

Tegan Kline (04:25):

Oh my gosh, so much. I have so much respect for both Yaniv and Brandon. They have very different leadership styles. Just kind of double clicking into those zones that I mentioned, that really comes from McKinsey, and that was kind of our secret plan, if you will, where zone one was very much near term. That’s where Yaniv kicked that off, and then Brandon solidified it and finished it. Now we’re in zone two of getting everything upgraded to the decentralized network. And from there we’ll be able to enter zone three where it’s really about data acquisition for The Graph. And actually that’s where Yaniv is playing 3D chess today with Geo.

(05:00):

What’s great about this ecosystem and The Graph and decentralization is that it’s kind of like the PayPal mafia, but everyone’s still working on The Graph. They’re not launching new companies, new projects elsewhere. And that’s one beautiful thing about The Graph ecosystem and other decentralized protocols. But I think Yaniv was an incredible visionary. He’s just amazing at pulling people in and getting people excited. He’s also a great leader. He really leaned in. He really empowered me. And Brandon taught me so much in terms of discipline and operations. Brandon’s just this brilliant mind and he thinks about everything so deeply. So yeah, both of them are incredible leaders in their own way, and I’m grateful that they’re both still focused on The Graph.

Nick (05:42):

I’m incredibly flattered to have had the opportunity to interview both Yaniv and Brandon. Of course, this is your second time back. And again, very grateful that you would take the time. A lot of success early on here in your tenure as CEO. You’ve launched this Sunrise campaign, and now the New Era is out in the wild. We’re going to talk a lot more about those things, but before we do-

Tegan Kline (06:01):

Actually with the Sunrise, all credit to the team. I mean, so many people inside of Edge & Node deserve the credit for that. The initial conversation I had with Ford where he had the idea of the upgrade Indexer, I met with Ariel and Jannis one morning and we were riffing on how do we get the traffic from the hosted service directly to the network without a stop in the middle? Because we were thinking we might have to move it to studio and then move it to the network, and you want to reduce friction and the number of hops for users as much as possible. And it was Jannis and Ariel that came up with the concept of just moving everything to the network. So all I did was ask the stupid questions actually. So yeah, I’ll credit to the team and Noel, Brian, Kyle, everyone at Edge & Node. There’s been so many people that have helped with this. I hate doing shout-outs like this because I always forget 15 people, but it’s really been all about empowering the team.

Nick (06:58):

So Tegan, you were gracious enough as part of this episode to do a exclusive AMA for the GRTiQ Podcast. This meant the listeners had a chance to submit questions in advance. Any questions that we weren’t able to get to you’ve agreed to post answers in the show notes, so I encourage listeners to visit the show notes and you can read an ongoing AMA. And of course we’re sharing a lot of the answers to questions on our Twitter account.

(07:24):

But I do want to ask this one question that came in from a listener who didn’t leave their social handle but submitted as Matt. So thank you for the question, Matt. The question is, “What’s your vision or what do you hope to accomplish as you start your role as CEO at Edge & Node?”

Tegan Kline (07:41):

It’s all about focus and execution. I mean, there’s so much that we want to do in the next five years, but it’s really about breaking that down, prioritizing it, and making sure that we’re super hyper-focused on each piece so that we get it done quickly and then can move to the next piece. That’s how we’re approaching execution.

(07:58):

In the first 100 days, I really focused on kind of outlining the culture. Obviously we all have ideas of what the culture is, but I wanted to get that down on paper because I do believe that the culture is the foundation at which you build the business. And then from there we put the mission and vision down on paper, and our principles, and why we’re doing this. We define decentralization, we define censorship resistance. I think that that’s important to have that down because even sometimes I’ll reference it if I’m doing a podcast as an example or if I’m writing something, it’s good to reference that and just see what’s solidified. So that, I think, was a great level up to the team.

(08:38):

I also focused on hiring of course for key roles. We got eight key roles filled in the first 100 days. We also got the team focused around GRT as opposed to Edge & Node the company, because The Graph Network is our focus. And of course GRT is a work utility token, and you should only purchase what you intend to use in the network. That’s the entire point of GRT is that it’s used in the network. But yeah, just focus on execution.

(09:01):

And then from there we set the North Stars. The North Stars are really getting 80% of the hosted service traffic upgraded to the decentralized network. We actually found a way with the Sunrise, as you mentioned, to upgrade all of it to the network. So that’s exciting and that’s our number one priority today. But then also increasing decentralization so that any areas where it needs further decentralization, that’s also our focus. That’s more of a midterm focus though. We’re doing that kind of in parallel with the first North Star. And then just establishing OKRs. You want to set OKRs that are ambitious, so you never want to complete 100% of your OKRs, you want to get around 70% of those OKRs. And so we set those as a company, as a team across functions so that we have a handful of objectives and key results that we’re all driving towards together.

Nick (09:50):

I love the execution focus. And like you said, already you’re having some success and the Sunrise was a huge hit and a lot of motivation. A lot of people throughout web3 are watching The Graph for these incredible initiatives and campaigns. It’s a lot of fun to see.

(10:04):

I do think that some context might be helpful. Of course there is occasions where this might be the first episode of the podcast that a listener has tuned into, so can we set some context on what a core dev is at The Graph? Like you said there, your focus at Edge & Node is helping build the protocol, but what is a core dev? Can you explain that for us?

Tegan Kline (10:24):

Yeah, absolutely. Edge & Node, we are the initial team behind The Graph. We developed the protocol and we launched The Graph Network hand in hand with The Graph Foundation. So those are two separate entities. And then other core devs have joined The Graph ecosystem. I believe it was six in official capacity joined The Graph ecosystem. So that’s six companies, six CEOs, six CTOs that are working on The Graph, and many additional contributors working on The Graph full time. It’s been amazing to see.

(10:54):

But I believe now The Foundation has gone permissionless with core developers. What that means is if you have a company or a project or you want to start a company, you can focus full-time on The Graph. There’s so many ways to do it. There’s so many ways to get involved. And I know you hear core developer and you think, “Oh, it’s just engineering.” It’s not just engineering. It is everything. It’s marketing, it’s legal, it’s operations. You name it, you can add value in The Graph ecosystem. So if you do have interest, get in touch with me, get in touch with Eva. Get in touch with someone in The Graph ecosystem and we’ll help to empower you.

Nick (11:27):

As you mentioned there, there’s a roster of super impressive core dev teams working on The Graph. So you’ve got Messari that’s working on subgraphs, you’ve got Semiotic that brings AI, and the list goes on and on. When you think about Edge & Node, and as you said, it’s the founding team of The Graph. And so sometimes those get conflated Edge & Node in The Graph. But when you think about Edge & Node just as that core dev team, how as CEO are you framing the contributions Edge & Node needs to make to the protocol?

Tegan Kline (11:56):

Absolutely. One kind of clarification between Edge & Node and The Graph; The Graph is decentralized infrastructure. It’s technology. There’s no company behind that technology, just like Bitcoin, just like Ethereum. So when you have contributors to the protocol, but we aren’t The Graph and The Graph is not us. But I know it’s confusing. And with decentralization, some of these things do get conflated, but I wanted to make that point.

(12:20):

At Edge & Node, our main focus is The Graph Network. So we will not stop until The Graph is solidified as the future of the internet. And so what that means is that The Graph is public data. We’re actually going towards all data very soon. And it’s data that can’t be owned and controlled by one single company or a group of companies. It’s really important that that data is open and decentralized. And so that’s what we’re really focused on.

(12:46):

We’re focused on making The Graph autonomous, and that involves many different things. We just worked on the Layer 2 transfer tools. That’s been a big focus. Our main focus now in finishing that initiative is on the Sunrise, so upgrading all of the hosted service traffic to the decentralized network in a really seamless way with really great dev experience and also support.

(13:08):

At Edge & Node, we have over 66 people on the team. They’re incredible. I wake up every day grateful. It’s really about empowering them, empowering the ecosystem, enabling them, unblocking them. Because the whole point of hiring great people is to let them run, and so that’s really my job at Edge & Node. But we’re very much mission first with a very high excellence bar.

Nick (14:34):

Before you became CEO, you led business at Edge & Node. And so for listeners that may not be familiar here, you’re not the new CEO in terms of coming into Edge & Node. You’ve been there and you drove business activity for Edge & Node for a long time. How do you think that prior role of leading business will inform your approach as CEO? I mean, I think it’s super interesting, because you have been driving so much of the growth. How will that be reflected in your approach to CEO?

Tegan Kline (14:58):

Totally, yeah, and I think I was kind of helping out in some of the areas where the engineering leaders didn’t love going out and talking to people, building the brand, helping with fundraising. All of those areas I’ve owned since the very beginning. It’s really just stepping into a new place where you have a bird’s eye view of everything happening in the company and in The Graph ecosystem.

(15:18):

In business, I was able to silo and just focus on the business side, but now I have to learn about engineering and understand the different teams, the different dynamics, who’s working on what. That’s been a really exciting area to rise to the occasion. And truthfully, it was probably one of my biggest hesitations around accepting the role as CEO because I’m not an engineer. It’s a very technical product, and I wanted to make sure that I’m a good leader to the engineering team. And so that’s something my coach really helped me through. It’s not about telling the engineering team what to do, it’s really about just empowering the engineering team. So that’s been an exciting challenge.

Nick (15:58):

I’ve had the opportunity to not only interview Brandon and Yaniv, but a lot of members of the Edge & Node team along with a lot of other members within the ecosystem. It’s been fun for me just by virtue of those interviews to learn about the evolution of Edge & Node and how it’s grown, and to learn about the initial set of employees that work there all the way, as you mention now, to almost 70 employees. But as you look back and think about those early days of Edge & Node, how has it evolved since you first got started?

Tegan Kline (16:26):

Oh my gosh, so much has changed. I think early days when I came into The Graph, it was positioned as an indexing query layer, and most people don’t know what that means. And so my first challenge was really, and with such a heavy engineering team, you don’t realize those things. You’re not even thinking about those things; you’re just building it. And so I wanted to help translate it to the masses because that’s who this is for. This is to enable and empower those that have been left behind, those that don’t have support. It’s not just for the crypto community or just for engineers around the world. I wanted to break that down, so that’s where we landed with what Google does for the web, The Graph does for web3 and organizing data so you can easily access that data.

(17:09):

And so that was really exciting. I came in, I helped with the fundraise, I helped to educate everyone so they could understand The Graph. It was an amazing launch. It was really exciting, exhilarating. But decentralization, it’s not sexy. It’s not always exciting, it’s not always exhilarating. It’s a lot of hard work, a lot of execution, a lot of focus to get fully decentralized, fully permissionless, censorship resistant and all of those amazing things that we strive towards. And so that’s really what we’re doing. We’re focused on execution and delivering on our promises from early days, but it’s been amazing to see so many incredible people come into that ecosystem over the years.

Nick (17:46):

What’s it like for you personally as you reflect on your career and especially the last few years and you think about launching The Graph, then spinning into Edge & Node, and then you go to where we are today where there’s this worldwide community of enthusiasts about The Graph, they’re contributing, they’re creating content, they’re translating documents. What’s it like to see this worldwide community spring from something that you were in on so early?

Tegan Kline (18:11):

It’s an amazing feeling. It’s an amazing feeling watching so many people find passion and hope in their lives. And that’s really been the goal from the very beginning. I mean, you can listen to my initial podcast on GRTiQ. That’s really what it’s about. And it’s only the beginning. There’s hundreds of businesses, hundreds of Indexers are working on The Graph. When we started, none of that existed. And there’s tens of thousands of Delegators. I think right now it’s kind of a dark time in the world. The US is losing power. There’s so many things that are dark and heavy and hard. A lot of us anticipated those things, and that’s why we’re in crypto trying to build this better world. I would prefer that those things not come true, but unfortunately our hypothesis is being proven right, and it’s important that we hold the light through the darkness for the ecosystem, we give people hope.

(19:02):

I think that’s what we’re doing with The Graph. That’s really what I want to continue doing, bringing people in, spreading the mind virus, if you will, not just of The Graph, but of the crypto ecosystem and our ethos, our values.

Nick (19:15):

Tegan, let’s do another listener question. Again, these are questions that were submitted as part of the AMA for this podcast. This question comes in from an anonymous listener, no social handle or name here. So shout out to anonymous listener. Let me ask the question. The question is, “Since you’ve got started in web3, you’ve risen to the level of industry leader and thought leader.” And they just want to know, “Where does this fire come from? Where does this passion or conviction for web3 and everything you’re working on, where does it come from?”

Tegan Kline (19:49):

Totally. Well, for me, I came from Ohio to New York City. I was studying finance, lost in the sauce. Didn’t really have passion for anything other than wanting to make a difference in the world and make something of myself coming from this very small town. And right when I arrived to New York, I met Kevin Sekniqi, who is now the founder of Avalanche. Kevin started to red pill me. He planted the seed, though he should have done a better job and helped me buy some Bitcoin. So for that, I’m forever upset with Kevin about, but that’s okay. And I didn’t really understand monetary policy enough to see the vision of Bitcoin at that time. And then from there, I kind of made fun of Kevin every time a headline came of Bitcoin crashing, and I really didn’t get it.

(20:37):

Then when I moved from New York City to San Francisco, I was still working on Wall Street. And a friend of mine, Alan, he taught me about Ethereum. And he was actually short Bitcoin. He’s like, “I hate Bitcoin. I’m shorting it.” And that was interesting. And Ethereum, the reason it clicked for me was just I was on Wall Street, I was in finance. I saw some of the inefficiencies, just starting with the inefficiencies of the tech. It’s so massive in finance. It’s so hard to get a trade to actually go through the T plus 2. Oftentimes it breaks and then it’s T plus 3 settle, three days to settle. And so just starting with that, but then also being this kind of middleman that’s making a ton of money in investment banking didn’t always feel great. And with Ethereum, I saw the opportunity to remove that middleman from the equation, make things much more efficient and also much more fair. Like this idea of a meritocracy where the value that you add, you’re compensated for that value. That’s one of our core values in crypto is building this meritocratic system.

(21:42):

So yeah, it was really Ethereum that I saw first, and that’s what got me into the space. I left Wall Street and I joined crypto full-time, made some mistakes along the way, but I’m grateful to have found my home in The Graph ecosystem. I found my passion in this. And I think that it’s beyond just data. We can transform society by showing the world that there’s a paradigm shift happening. We can be better people and add more value, and everyone can kind of hopefully find financial freedom in the crypto industry and the future of the world instead of being taken advantage of by large institutions that love to hold power.

Nick (22:22):

So you go from working on Wall Street, having some fun with friends about Bitcoin and what it all means to getting activated by Ethereum and the vision of what it could do for the world. And now, as I said, you’re widely recognized. You’ve been featured in a lot of publications, Forbes, CNBC, Bloomberg. When those opportunities come along and you know you’re kind of being a spokesperson for web3 and for crypto, how do you frame those messages? How do you structure what you’re going to say? Because I think a lot of us, and I’m sure it’s true for a lot of listeners, when they’re at the kitchen table and family or friends are asking questions, it’s kind of hard. And yet, we’re not on Bloomberg. We’re not on CNBC trying to deliver that message. So take us inside your mind a little bit there. What is your approach to these types of opportunities? What do you try to say?

Tegan Kline (23:06):

Oftentimes they’ll come to you with a specific topic. So it’s really about understanding that topic enough to speak in a way that you can convey a message. But also breaking it down and being approachable is so important, and I think it’s something that not a lot of people in crypto spend enough time doing. We want this industry to be approachable. We have our own lingo. Sometimes I talk to people working in other industries and they’re like, “It sounds like you’re talking Mandarin. You might as well be talking Mandarin because I don’t know what that means.” And so we have to remember that. Who knew, coming from investment banking, that I would be spending, I don’t know, 70 to 80% of my time talking about indexing and querying. 90% of people don’t know what the heck indexing is or querying is. So when we say indexing, you could think of organizing the data. And when you say query, you can almost think of searching that data, like looking for an answer. So when was Thich Nhat Hanh born? That’s a query.

(24:03):

But we have to remember that most people don’t speak the language we’re speaking. So when you get opportunities like that to go out to the masses, it’s really important to kind of understand that specific audience and tailor a message to them so that you can kind of plant the seed or begin the red pilling, if you will.

Nick (24:20):

Well, the huge unlock, and you referenced this earlier, but I’ll go ahead and double click on it. The huge unlock for The Graph was that early language that you came up with about The Graph being the Google of blockchain. I mean, I think in the early days, and I think it persists. A lot of people latched onto that, that was a hook, and it made indexing and querying a lot more easy to understand and positioned The Graph within web3. So, incredibly helpful early on.

Tegan Kline (24:43):

Thank you. I can’t take full credit though for that. I did kind of sit down with Yaniv and Brandon and the team and pull it out of them, so really all credit to them. But thank you.

Nick (24:52):

So for the past year, not only have you been going on those mass media publications like Bloomberg and CNBC, but you’ve also been hosting a podcast on The Defiant. I just wanted to ask you what that experience has been like. I mean, I’ve listened to some of those episodes, you’ve had some incredible guests. How have you enjoyed that, and what has that experience been like for you?

Tegan Kline (25:13):

I love it. I’m a huge fan of Camilla Russo. I think she does amazing work, amazing diligence. I’ve loved The Defiant since the very beginning of my crypto journey when they launched. It’s been really great just because you can get so bogged down in your specific area, so I’m so heads down in The Graph ecosystem that it’s nice to kind of pop my head up, keep my finger on the pulse. I love going deep with founders that I respect in the industry. And so yeah, it’s been a really great journey and I love doing it.

Nick (25:45):

Well, Tegan, let’s do another listener question. This one came in a couple different forms, so we’ll give the attribution here to a listener with the social handle 8411. So shout out to 8411 and a couple of the other listeners who kind of asked similar question, but it’s a question about AI. The question is, “What’s your vision for the future of AI impact on the industry, and how does The Graph fit into that?”

Tegan Kline (26:11):

The Graph has been focused on this and leading the charge in this for a while, thanks to Semiotic, one of the core devs. We’ve been using machine learning in The Graph ecosystem for a while now, thanks to Semiotic. The Indexers use it for pricing, and there’s a lot of different things that are happening today using machine learning. That being said, one of the things that we’re focused on, especially in this New Era of The Graph where we go after all the world’s data, is when you could populate LLMs, so the technology behind ChatGPT, when you could populate that with verifiable data from the blockchain, that’s when things get really interesting.

(26:48):

Right now you can use Open AI’s ChatGPT to make really convincing arguments that are based off of garbage data. That’s kind of a risk area that I see with AI today. But I’m hoping that with leveraging blockchain technology that we can better educate the AIs so we can have great arguments based on great data. So that’s what I’m really excited about and it’s amazing that The Graph is focused on that. I think the Indexers are more than equipped to be able to handle that. So I’m really excited for the future there.

Nick (27:19):

There’s been some great blog posts and I’ve done a couple episodes with the team at Semiotics. So for anybody that wants to dive a little deeper on AI and The Graph, I invite you to check out those blogs or listen to those prior episodes.

(27:30):

You did mention New Era there. We talked about it a little bit in the beginning. For context for listeners that haven’t heard the announcement, the New Era is what The Graph is calling the updated and recent release of the R&D roadmap, and there’s a lot of excitement around New Era. At a high level, again, for listeners that haven’t seen that yet, what does the New Era say about the future of The Graph?

Tegan Kline (27:52):

Yeah, it’s a really exciting future. I think that The Graph has kind of cracked the code. As I mentioned, decentralization’s not sexy, it takes time. But one thing that The Graph ecosystem, and credit to The [Graph] Foundation on this, is bringing in these core developers so that each company can focus on a different segment. And because of that, we’re able to think about the new World of Data Services. So going after all data LLMs are one example. We’re also going after SQL, bringing that into The Graph ecosystem, allowing Indexers to organize that kind of data. This way, The Graph can kind of be the one-stop shop for all of your data needs, all of anyone’s data needs. And what’s important is that the data is organized in a decentralized way so that no one company controls that data or can manipulate that data.

(28:40):

We have over 200 Indexers on The Graph Network. All our independent companies, organizations, individuals around the world organizing that data. I always have called them the backbone of web3 because they truly are the backbone of this ecosystem, of this space. And as a Delegator, you can delegate to support these Indexers, get them additional GRT so that they can continue organizing the world’s data.

Nick (29:07):

As you mentioned there, Tegan, one of the objectives of the New Era, and there are five in total, the first one is the world of data services. And this objective, as you read the blog post, is primarily about expanding beyond Graph, QL, and subgraphs. I just want to know from your perspective, what does the fact that the first objective of The Graph’s New Era is about the world of data services, and what it says about the future of The Graph and how it fits in web3?

Tegan Kline (29:37):

Yeah, absolutely. So The Graph is expanding beyond just subgraphs, which have gained mass adoption to all data. What this says about the future is that The Graph will solidify that position as the internet’s unbreakable foundation of data used for decades, generations to come.

Nick (29:56):

I think another thing that caught my attention, and there’s been some forum posts on this and a lot of community discussion around Horizon. For listeners that have heard about this, and again, there’s a little bit of buzz about it, do you mind setting the context of what Horizon is and how it fits into the New Era?

Tegan Kline (30:12):

Yeah, so Horizon, you can think of a graph v2, and so we’re working to make improvements to The Graph protocol so that anyone can participate permissionlessly without needing any governance or core developer. That’s really the goal is permissionlessness as one of our core values, but also further decentralization, censorship resistance. That’s really what Horizon is focused on.

(30:38):

I can’t today say that it’s fully baked. We actually need to hear from you and the community and ecosystem to provide input on Horizon. We would love to hear from you, but also we’re working to improve the token economics in The Graph ecosystem. So if you have opinions on either of these things, I would encourage you to go to the forums to discuss it with us. You can also reach out if you prefer a one-on-one conversation. We’re here to chat through anything.

Nick (31:08):

Well, the launch of New Era is, again, it’s relatively new information, so I’m going to put a bunch of links in the show notes for any listeners that want to do a deeper dive. There’s a press release, there’s been a blog post and other things. So visit the show notes if you want to learn more about New Era. What are some of the other things that excite you that you’re looking forward to?

Tegan Kline (31:27):

I am really excited about incorporating LLMs. I’m also just really excited about the amount of development across the core devs. We just had an offsite in Panama where many core devs, anyone, those that are working on The Graph full-time join. It was over 120 of us. And what was really exciting was just to see the core dev teams collaborating with one another and hanging out with one another. It was just a really special offsite. We’ve done many of them and I found this one to be one of the most productives, but also one of the most, I don’t know, just special. So it was really great. As we work digitally, it’s really great to get together in person. But yeah, I’m very excited about LLMs, I’m excited about Horizon, and just continuing to solidify The Graph as the future of the internet.

Nick (32:19):

When you think about web3, and we talked a little bit about this earlier about the state of the world and there’s a lot of things going on geopolitically, and then you’ve got this emerging industry of web3 that’s happening alongside. And so context matters here. When you think about some of the biggest challenges for the industry itself as it continues to grow or try to get adoption, what are those challenges in your mind?

Tegan Kline (32:43):

I think the biggest challenge is just time. We need to just have time to continue developing this decentralized, open source, censorship resistant tech, and it’s great that so many different layers of the stack are focused on that.

(32:56):

I do think one challenge or risk area is just I’m seeing a lot of venture capitalists sway founders away from core values of crypto and web3, and I do think that is dangerous. I would hope that founders stay strong on those values and put a flag in the stand because it is so important that we stay true to those values. Because otherwise, what’s the point of all of this if we don’t execute on those core principles of the crypto space?

(33:29):

The Graph was one of the first indexing options for web3. I think, actually, it was the first. And today there are a handful of centralized indexing companies that have spun up that want to own the data, they want to own the developers. They’re actually leveraging The Graph’s tech and they’re selling it in a proprietary way. And so it makes me question, “Why are you even building on a blockchain if you’re going to be centralizing aspects of the stack?” To me, there’s not a lot of point in that. And so I think it’s important that we continue educating on these principles; but not just that, that we make using decentralized protocols easier than having a SaaS provider that’s building on centralized tech.

Nick (34:15):

I love hearing that perspective, and longtime listeners of the podcast know I’ve asked guests on occasion how important decentralization is to what they’re building or working on. Most of the time the rejoinder is, “What are we doing here if we’re not focusing on decentralization?” And I do appreciate the fact that that is values aligned not only with The Graph, but so many builders working within the ecosystem.

(34:39):

So turning that question a little bit on its head, then, Tegan. We talked a little bit about the challenges. What are some of the opportunities or what makes you optimistic about the future of web3?

Tegan Kline (34:49):

Yeah, so much. I think as I mentioned, the world is a bit dark right now. We’re going towards this authoritarian, centralized world where it’s top down and there’s kind of this intellectual elitism that’s emerging where I’m smart, I know, I know everything. I’ll tell you how to live and what to do. Well, no human is smart enough to understand the negative consequences and the negative externalities of decisions. I don’t care how big of an expert you are. I think it’s good to add to the conversation, educate people and let them make their own decisions. I do not believe in telling people what to live, what to do, and all of that. And I see every day we’re slipping closer and closer to that future, and that scares me.

(35:39):

And so with web3, with crypto, with the world that we’re building in, I view that as another option, right? We’re not going to force people to be free and self-sovereign, but we need to give them the option to be. And it starts with the decentralized technology. But like I said, that’s a blueprint that you can apply to everywhere in the world, every company in the world. I think that we will kind of transcend society to give people the option of freedom. And bottoms up, it’s a bottoms up movement. That’s what I believe in at the end of the day, and I hope that more of us can rally around that future so that people do have another option.

(36:23):

Hi, this is Tegan Kline, CEO of Edge & Node. If my conversation with the GRTiQ Podcast has been helpful to you, then please consider supporting future episodes by becoming a subscriber. Visit grtiq.com/podcast for more information. That’s grtiq.com/podcast. Thanks for listening.

Nick (36:52):

Well Tegan, in addition to being CEO of Edge & Node and one of the thought leaders in web3, you also happen to be one of the most prominent women in crypto. What’s your advice to women looking to get more involved in this industry and finding the type of success you’ve had?

Tegan Kline (37:08):

I would say do it. Yes, it’s true that there aren’t enough women in crypto, and it’s true that it is still a male dominated industry, but what that means for women is that you’re actually at an advantage. If you can handle it, you’re at an advantage kind of coming into the space. And one of the reasons I’ve chose to be so public with my brand, because you can choose to be private or public. A lot of amazing women or female leaders in the industry have chosen to be a little bit more private and more quiet, which I respect that. But I think that women need to see examples of other women that are not just involved in the space, but taking leadership roles in the space. And diversity is so important in every area I believe. You want a diverse portfolio. You need diverse opinions at a company.

(37:57):

The women’s value inside of companies is so incredible. Just from my personal experience, there have been so many times that because I have a different perspective, I’ve actually saved the company from hardship or headache or potentially even destruction. I think that we really need to speak about the value that women can bring to companies. We need to add more women to cap tables. We need to add more women to leadership positions at companies. I think that that’s something that everyone should be focused on.

(38:31):

I know as women, we always get these questions of, “How do we bring more women into this space?” But we really need to ask the men. Because I think most women leaders see the value there, but I see a lot of male leaders not focused on bringing women into the cap table, not focused on bringing women into the company. And I think we need to pressure them as much as we pressure the women.

(38:54):

With the permissionless nature of this industry, what that means is that you don’t have to ask permission to participate. So it doesn’t matter your gender, your race, your skin color, how much money you have, what school you went to. None of that really matters in crypto. You can come in and it’s really, like I said, a meritocracy. So your contributions, your level of respect, your level of power, all of that is based on the value that you add in these ecosystems. So don’t let the fact that it’s maybe a male dominated industry prevent you from trying to break in, from getting started. There’s so many ways to participate where you don’t even have to ask permission. So you can start there. You can get involved in volunteering. You can reach out to me. I’m always happy to do a 15-minute informational interview and help you on your journey in the industry.

(39:45):

Christina, who’s an amazing contributor, and she leads one of the DAOs in The Graph ecosystem today, that’s actually how she got started. She was a photographer. She reached out to me. I took a 15-minute interview with her. And she took everything that I recommended that she do, she did. Which is amazing, because most times you take informational interview and nothing really happens from it. But I think that she’s just an incredible example of rising in the industry, rising in the space. I’m really proud of her.

(40:15):

We’re also hiring at Edge & Node, so if you’re listening, not just women, but everyone, we are hiring.

Nick (40:22):

I had the chance to interview Christina Mills for Episode 89. So for anybody who wants to learn more about her journey, you can go back and listen to Episode 89. And as Tegan mentioned there, she features prominently in Christina’s onboarding into the industry, and Christina shares her perspective in that story. It was a lot of fun to hear. So if you want to learn more, go listen to Episode 89.

(40:41):

You mentioned there that Edge & Node is currently hiring. So what are the available roles?

Tegan Kline (40:46):

Absolutely, there’s so many if you go to edgeandnode.com. But we’re hiring for partnerships in BD on the business side, we’re hiring Rust engineers as well as software engineers, so full stack engineers. But we have a full list on the website if you want to check it out.

Nick (41:00):

Tegan, I want to ask you this question about balance. Listeners may or may not know you were recently married, so of course congratulations to you. But I also want to know, how do you balance all of this? You’re recently married, you’re CEO of Edge & Node, you’re also a leader within the web3 space talking to people, presenting, traveling. How do you find balance in your life?

Tegan Kline (41:25):

I don’t know if I’m the best example when it comes to balance just because I tend to work a lot, but I’ve been doing it my whole life. In high school, I was volunteering, I was working, I was studying, getting straight A’s, all of that. And then college, I was interning, working, going to school, studying, getting great grades. And then I also was partying at that time because as an extrovert, that was really a way for me to blow off steam and reduce stress. And I think because of my entire life, I’ve had to find the balance. That’s something I’ve always made time to do. It’s important to me to be excellent in all of those areas.

(42:05):

And now I’ve switched away from partying and I’ve focused on health. I would say in school that was definitely not a focus and I wish it was, but today I spend a lot of time working out and being conscious of what I consume, and I think that that’s really important that we all do that. And then also spending time on mental health and improving myself personally, all of that is really important.

(42:31):

I would say some tips, just put categories. Write out all of the categories that are important to you, rank them, and make sure that you’re blocking out time throughout the week to have a balance. Or maybe it’s not a week, it’s throughout the month. Make sure you’re balancing that, because it is really important for longevity. Especially in the startup world, you can burn out so quickly. So you really want to make sure it’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint, and you want to make sure that you’re setting yourself up for success long-term, not just a short period of time. One tip that I have is just putting blocks on your calendar. So if you want to go to the gym, put a block on your calendar and commit to actually doing it. You can step away for an hour no matter what. You can always step away for an hour to get a workout in. And oftentimes that workout will bring you clarity.

(43:24):

Also, I’ve broken down my week. When it comes to my work week, I break it down. Monday is a meeting day. I take meetings, I block those meetings based on, so I’m not context switching too much. So if I’m meeting internally with the team, I’ll set all of those back to back. If I’m meeting with external partners, I’ll set those back to back. Tuesday is my press day, so that’s when I take podcasts, or if I’m going on the news I try to do that on a Tuesday. Wednesday is a long meeting day. I take calls with Asia on Wednesday. Thursday, I take as a no meeting day, so I’m just heads down work. And then Friday I take half meeting day, half work day.

(44:03):

Stuff like that can help you balance and make sure that you’re not burning out. And then of course, spending time with friends, spending time with your family, all of that is really important to schedule. So it’s really just kind of time management. And then of course you want to have creative time. And if you’re feeling burned out or frustrated, it’s important to just step away, whatever it looks like for you. For some people it’s taking a walk, for other people it’s having a bubble bath. Whatever you need to do, make sure you understand what that looks like for you so you can kind of de-stress and get away from it.

Nick (44:36):

That’s an incredible answer, and I appreciate the level of detail you went into there. I think that’s going to be very helpful for a lot of listeners that want to find more balance. It’s also great insight into how you structure your weeks and how you’re able to get so many things done.

(44:48):

I only have two more questions for you before I ask you the GRTiQ 10. And I’m lucky to have you back. The GRTiQ 10 didn’t exist as a segment when you joined me for the first time, so I’m very excited to hear your answers to those 10 questions. But before we get there, I want to ask you this first question. As you know, Tegan, a lot of listeners of this podcast are enthusiastic about The Graph. They followed your career and they’re supporting your leadership, and they’re very interested in the things you’re working on. If you could speak to them, what do you wish more of the community understood or appreciated about The Graph and its future?

Tegan Kline (45:21):

I would just say kind of the mission, the vision, and why we’re all here working on this. And finding passion in that, whatever that looks like to you, and then feeling empowered to help on that mission. I always say, really it’s not about any one individual, it’s about the mission. I think Yaniv said it best when he said, “Treat power like a hot potato.” It’s like you really want to be giving power away the moment that you get it. You don’t want to be hoarding power, right? That’s for the old system. We’ve seen how that goes. It’s not good. And inside of us as humans, we have this tendency to want to hold onto power or go towards greed. It’s important that you understand that we are all capable of losing ourselves in that, so you have to find a way to control it in yourself. I think that that is just very, very important.

(46:16):

But in terms of The Graph ecosystem, understand your strengths, understand your superpowers, and that’s really what you should be focusing on. I wish that I had understood that sooner about myself because I wanted to be perfect in everything. And if you’re trying to be perfect in everything, you’re not going to be perfect in anything. So really understand, what do you love? What are you great at doing? And focus there in a 1000 exit, 10,000 exit. Do not focus on your weaknesses. On your weaknesses, understand what they are and delegate them away. Find other people that are great at doing what you’re weak at doing. That’s the biggest piece of advice I can give to you.

(46:52):

I would love to invite anyone listening to apply your strengths, apply your superpowers to something in The Graph ecosystem. And if you don’t know what that could be, reach out to me and I’m happy to help you figure it out or give advice on how you could get started because that’s really one of the reasons why I’m here is to empower people around the world to find their passions and make a difference.

Nick (47:16):

The next question I want to ask you is about your legacy. I know you’ve got a lot of work to do, you’re young, you’ve got a lot of career left. But as you think about the legacy you want to leave at Edge & Node as CEO, or maybe even in web3 more broadly, how are you thinking about that?

Tegan Kline (47:34):

I would say I don’t really want to leave a legacy. I want to empower other people to leave a legacy, and I’m hoping that that’s kind of what my leadership style is doing today within Edge & Node, but also within the ecosystem. I want to kind of fade into the abyss and highlight everyone else, and I want the legacy to be The Graph as a future core piece of the internet used by billions of people around the world for generations to come. That’s really what we’re focused on, really kind of creating this world that’s powered by individual autonomy, self sovereignty, and limitless collaboration. That’s what we’re building.

Nick (48:12):

Well, you mentioned Christina Mills earlier and how you played a role in onboarding her into web3, and I can think in my own mind of other people that have been on the podcast that were onboarded into The Graph or web3 by virtue of that legacy that you’re building there, which is to empower others. And so very exciting to see and to know that that is your vision.

(48:29):

We’ve now reached a point in the podcast, Tegan, where I’m going to ask you the GRTiQ 10. And like I said, I wasn’t fortunate enough the first time I interviewed you to have these 10 questions available, but they’re here now and I know everybody’s going to be very curious to know your answers. And so Tegan Kline, are you ready for the GRTiQ 10?

Tegan Kline (48:45):

Let’s do it.

Nick (48:57):

What book or articles had the most impact on your life?

Tegan Kline (49:01):

I would say it’s been different at different stages in my life. When I was in Ohio, I read Marilyn Manson’s Long Hard Road out of Hell, and it’s funny because he’s actually also from Ohio. And so that was really inspiring to me at the time. And from there, when I went to New York City, it was The Alchemist and just kind of learning power of mind and how important it is to have a success mindset. And then when I became a manager at Edge & Node, I read Trillion Dollar Coach, and that really helped me become a better manager. It’s about Bill’s style as a coach, and he coached many of the great leaders in web2, including Larry and Sergey of Google. And so I highly recommend that for anyone who aspires to be a manager or is trying to become a better manager.

(49:50):

And then I read Unconscious Business by Fred Kofman, and that was just incredible in terms of understanding values and how important that is. I actually reached out to Fred and he is now my mentor, my coach, my spirit guide, if you will. So those are the four books that made a big impact on me.

Nick (50:13):

Incredible. So is there a movie or a TV show that you would recommend everyone should watch?

Tegan Kline (50:18):

Yes. My favorite movie is Stand By Me. It’s a coming of age story by Stephen King; 10 out of 10, favorite movie of all time.

Nick (50:26):

And how about this one. If you could only listen to one music album for the rest of your life, which one would you choose?

Tegan Kline (50:31):

Back in the day I would say Marilyn Manson, but today I think I would say Buddy Holly. It’s very uplifting.

Nick (50:37):

What’s the best advice someone’s ever given to you?

Tegan Kline (50:40):

I am not sure if it’s the best advice, but it’s definitely shaped how I think. When I was moving from New York City to San Francisco, I was promoted at Barclays and I met with my directors. They took me out for lunch. And one of the things I said is, “My parents are really afraid of the earthquakes in California.” And one of my directors, he looked at me and he’s like, “There’s no point in being afraid of that. If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen. So why spend any time worrying about it?” And I love that. There’s so many things that we have fear of, like fear of flying, fear of whatever. You name it. And what’s the point? Don’t worry about it. If it happens, it happens. Deal with it then. Don’t spend your days worrying about something that has such a low probability of happening.

Nick (51:26):

Tegan Kline, what’s one thing you’ve learned in your life that you don’t think most other people have learned or know quite yet?

Tegan Kline (51:32):

I would say the Fed as being the root of all evil, but I think that most people, it’s a secret to the universe that many people don’t really. I don’t know if they don’t want to understand it or if it’s just so difficult to connect the dots there. But I would say that, and then also just working on yourself. Mental health and healing, it’s so important, and I wouldn’t be where I am today if I didn’t spend so much time on that. It’s not a one-time thing and then you’re done. You have to spend the rest of your life healing and learning to love yourself and knowing that you’re enough. If you don’t do that work, you will not succeed in life because you’ll be so afraid that other people will replace you.

(52:17):

There’s so many times in your career where you want to bring people on to your team that are better than you. So if you’re afraid and you feel like you’re not good enough, you’re going to be afraid to bring those people in, and then you’re doing a disservice to the mission that you’re on. And so I would say, yeah, my biggest piece of advice is just do that inner work and don’t stop doing it.

Nick (52:38):

What’s the best life hack you’ve discovered for yourself?

Tegan Kline (52:41):

Besides hiring Caroline, I mean, she helps a hundred X me. She’s incredible. She’s a silent hero. But I would say what I mentioned before is just time blocks on the calendar, delegating your weaknesses, delegating areas where you’re not strong at so that you can really focus on your superpowers, and reduce context switching as much as you can.

Nick (53:02):

Based on your own life, observations, and experiences, what’s the one habit or characteristic that you think best explains how or why people find success in life?

Tegan Kline (53:13):

I think making decisions quickly is such an important area to be successful. You can always pivot and change as you need to, but you don’t want to spend too long deciding something. I think one example of this for me is when I left Wall Street. I left, I joined a company. I was at that company for three months. But I knew I wanted to join crypto full time, and so I was able to kind of take new information that I got and pivot. And so don’t spend too long pondering, because there’s so many people on Wall Street today that are like, “I should have made the move to crypto. I should have made the move to crypto.” And it’s like, “Yeah, you still should. Do it.”

Nick (53:49):

And then the final three questions are complete the sentence type questions. So the first one is, the thing that most excites me about web3 is?

Tegan Kline (53:57):

Removing centralized choke points so no one can force corruption on the internet.

Nick (54:03):

And how about this one? If you’re on X, formerly Twitter, then you should be following?

Tegan Kline (54:07):

Eric Vorhees, Sam Williams, Eva [inaudible 00:54:11], Ashley [inaudible 00:54:12]. And of course, Vitalik.

Nick (54:13):

And the last one. I’m happiest when?

Tegan Kline (54:16):

I’m happiest when I’m helping to educate about The Graph and empowering the team and ecosystem.

Nick (54:30):

Tegan Kline, I am incredibly humbled that you would come back onto the podcast, and I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you again. It’s a really exciting time to be a member of The Graph community and to see all the great work that Edge & Node is doing and all the other core devs, and of course Sunrise, a New Era are recent initiatives that really paint an optimistic future about The Graph and where this whole industry is heading. If listeners want to follow you, stay up to date on the things you’re working on, what’s the best way for them to stay in touch?

Tegan Kline (55:01):

You can follow me on Twitter @theklineventure. I also have TikTok where I kind of break down things in crypto and web3. And then my website, TeganKline.com, T-E-G-A-N-K-L-I-N-E.com. There’s a form there so you can actually email me via my website.