GRTiQ Podcast: 24 David

The following podcast is for informational purposes only the contents of this podcast do not constitute tax legal or investment advice, take responsibility for your own decisions, consult with the proper professionals and do your own research.

00:23
It’s very important for any application to have quality data that is uncensorable and unhackable. So The Graph does a really good job of that. And it’s a great solution to a problem. And it’s a very difficult problem to solve. That’s why The Graph is really the only team that I’ve seen with this solution right now in the market that’s usable.

01:16
Welcome to the GRTiQ Podcast. Today I’m speaking with David, a subgraph developer and Curator at The Graph, who works with the Synthetix and Kwenta teams. In addition to being a user of The Graph, Synthetix has been a close partner with the community for a long time, and David has played an important role. Our conversation covers many topics, including David’s diverse background, his passion for Ethereum. What Synthetix does this new project Kwenta, and how they both leverage The Graph, we started the conversation talking about David’s educational and professional background.

01:53
Well, first, I have allergies right now, I don’t always sound like this. But anyway, just putting a disclaimer out there. I’ve had three careers. So my first career was environmental management. I worked for a big aerospace company in the US. Then I worked in real estate finance and development, I worked for one of the biggest private equity groups in New York at their largest subsidiary in Florida. And then I really didn’t like working in real estate finance that much was very corporate, I wanted to do something a little bit more. On the tech side, though. I started learning how to code about six, seven years ago, and took me a little bit of time to get the speed. But eventually, I switched over to tech. I started a media company, went to a computer vision company. And then maybe like four years ago, I switched into blockchain. So I’ve been doing blockchain about four to five years. And I started out mostly on the front end for a company called Nash, which is a decentralized, cross chain exchange. And then I became really obsessed with that theory, maybe like two years ago. So I started studying Ethereum in depth. So I ended up having a connection of mine that was that Synthetix, I reached out to them. And I was an investor in Synthetix flow before I joined that I was familiar with the protocol, and a big fan of the project. And I still am, I think there’s a lot of upside, a lot of room for growth. So I joined Synthetix and then I’ve been there for the past year and a half. And now at Synthetix. I was one of the people on the team who built Kwenta, which Kwenta.io is that website where you can interact with this Synthetix protocol, so you can use it to trade derivative offered by Synthetix. And Kwenta is now being spun out as a separate team. So I am leaving Synthetix that joining Kwenta. And what I’ll be doing in Kwenta is we’re aiming to build the best interface for interacting with Synthetix. And then also, now we have a new goal, which is to drive value to the client their token. So in the last month alone, before we’ve launched Layer 2, which the transaction will be infinitely cheaper, and before we’ve launched our futures product, which will add margin trading quantitative $1.3 billion in volume last month. So we think it’s a really big opportunity. We think that, you know, our goal is the sky’s the limit, and just to build the best exchange in the world, and The Graph is a part of that. You know, whatever we do with our contracts. At Kwenta, we’re going to be using The Graph, read the data, just like Synthetix uses it for all of their contracts. And when I was at Synthetix, I did work on the front end, but I was also heavily involved with the subgraph. So that was kind of my main responsibility was to make sure that every time we had a lot of contracts that were regularly being updated. So when you have this sort of like architecture where you’re not just like, set it and forget it, it’s actually quite complicated to work with subgraph. Plus, we have multiple networks that we try to support the now you have very large subgraphs across multiple networks. So yeah, that’s kind of how I started getting involved with The Graph. And then I joined the Curator program, and now I curate on this Synthetix subgraph that I created.

05:43
So it’s common for a guest of the podcast to have some type of draw to Ethereum. And I’m curious about yours. What is it about Ethereum that drew you in and caused you to be obsessed with it?

05:57
Well, Ethereum is like, it’s just a special project. I think it has the best community in the world, just like the smartest people who care about the world and want to make it a better place. And that being said, at the same time, it’s a world of financial abundance and wealth and growth, right. So I think it’s made a lot of people very wealthy, a lot of creators and builders and investors, people who shape the world. And I think a lot of people are coming together and building on Ethereum of and creating this very unique environment. And if you look at metallic, he’s just kind of a one of a kind founder, where he’s not really in it for the money. I mean, he’s made it and who knows what he’s really in it for. But like, he never comes across that way, it always seems like he’s just out for the best outcome for the world and community. He’s donated a lot of money. I mean, I just think it’s a, it’s a very innovative project. That will be the cornerstone of Web 3, it’ll be, you know, the settlement layer for the world, it’s only going to get bigger and bigger, and what’s not to like about it, you know, so that’s kind of, I’m a huge fan. I love it.

07:14
So a guy like you with your background and the different things you’ve done in your life. At some point, you made a decision to go all in on crypto, and it’s so early. I’m just curious, why take that risk? Why enter the crypto space?

07:28
Well, I just thought it was a lot more interesting to me. You know, cuz it’s kind of like this black box of where things are going, why crypto try to explain it to your friends and family aren’t technical? What’s a blockchain? what’s a crypto? Why is it useful? And then on top of that, like, you can’t just learn about the technology side, you have to understand what is money? How does money work? So there’s all these rabbit holes go down? It’s a very fascinating field. And even The Graph, like why does The Graph exist? What is The Graph? Like? These are all very complicated questions that there’s no easy answer for right? So when you have all this complexity, it just opens the door for a lot of innovation. That’s even unexpected, right? So like, now you have NFT mania, right, like Bored Ape Club. And all these things are on Ethereum, you know. So, look, in terms of my main focus, it’s, I like DeFi a lot. I think Synthetix is a very interesting project where derivatives trading is so much larger than spot volume and traditional finance. And I think crypto could soon have that moment where derivative just accelerates exponentially. So, you know, kind of what I would like to do is to have Kwenta be the best place to trade derivatives and sort of present the best user experience. And then from there, there’s a million things we could do with the project. But you know, we just want to do one thing at a time and, and have the best futures interface have the best place for shorting the best place just to go spot if you want to, you know, move in between since their derivatives contracts. So you know, it’s already doing quite well, but we think there’s still like exponential growth ahead if we can deliver.

09:28
Let’s spend a minute and just kind of break down the two entities that brought you to The Graph and that you’ve already mentioned Kwenta and Synthetix, let’s start with Synthetix. What would you or how would you describe Synthetix to maybe somebody who is new to the space or doesn’t quite understand crypto?

09:44
Yeah, so Synthetix is a way for you to bet on the price of an asset moving without actually owning that asset. So that’s essentially what a derivative contract is. So let’s say that I want exposure to Apple. The nice thing about Ethereum is it’s open for anyone in the world with an internet connection. So you can have people who use Apple products in other countries who can’t buy Apple stock because of regulation. So now these people have the ability to buy Synthetix Apple, or other assets that weren’t available to them. Now, they could also go into Synthetix ETH. Or they could hold ETH itself. Now, one of the things that is coming out soon is called futures, which allows you to do leveraged trading. There’s a very popular product, people want to lever up their youth, but they think it’s gonna go up. I don’t know if you saw FTX just kept their leverage upside to 20x instead of 100x. So there is like, maybe too much leverage. But there’s still a lot of demand for some leverage on a trade. I think futures and using derivatives a great way to get exposure because you don’t get slippage on price. So if you trade against Synthetix, you’re getting the price of the asset, no matter what happens, like if you have a huge order, there’s no slippage on your trade, right. So there’s a lot of benefits to trading on this Synthetix protocol. And it’s a nice way to make a bet on a variety of assets that we offer. Essentially, you can go short or long or tune, you’ll have futures where you get leverage of your bet.

11:35
And so let’s introduce Kwenta then. So how would you explain then the relationship between Kwenta and Synthetix?

11:41
Right? So Kwenta was spawned from Synthetix, Kwenta is an interface for trading, right. And as that becomes more popular, you have just like any website, right, google.com, I mean, Facebook.com, you can monetize your volume or your traffic. So the goal of Kwenta is to kind of start out with Synthetix, make it an incredible trading experience. And then add products on top such as, like limit orders. On top of Synthetix derivatives, right now with Synthetix, you have to make market orders, the ETH is trading at $2200. And you want to go into this Synthetix ETH, you have to buy it at 2200. You can’t say, Well, I’m going to set an order for 1900. And forget about it. And if the market crashes, that will just pick it up for me, right. So we’re going to be adding features like that, which we’ll use, which will drive value to the Kwenta token, right. So we’re very confident we can drive tremendous amounts of volume, and then have a small percentage of that fee captured by the Kwenta token as well. But it’s a you know, there’s a lot of work to do. So we’re going to take it one step at a time and really just make the trading experience as good as possible. That’s the that’s the number one goal, though, you know, we get more users than

13:07
So what is your role at Kwenta, then?

13:10
I do a little bit of everything. On the tech side. We work on the smart contracts, the subgraphs, and the user interface. So kind of across the board, everything.

13:21
So David, part of the reason you and I are talking today is listeners of the podcast are very interested in use cases behind The Graph. And so I’ve been reaching out to people like you and others on how you use The Graph and how important it is to what you’re doing. Can you take a minute maybe describe the way that Synthetix and maybe even Kwenta leverages The Graph?

13:44
Sure. So basically, anytime we want to get a user’s historical data for interacting with this Synthetix protocol, or if we want to get statistics on Synthetix data, so if you understand stats.synthetix.io, I also built that initial version. Actually, there’s the guy who is replacing me at Synthetix also worked on this that site now. So he’s kind of taking over the possibilities I had. But basically, when you show like total trading volume, and number of users number of transactions over a given time period, all of these things require historical data from Ethereum. Right? So you need some source of this historical data for your user, like, also on like the Kwenta’s site, like all your trades that you’ve made in the past, right, you need to show that the user. So what we do is whenever there’s data that’s older, you can’t just ping the like an impure node and say, give me all this historical data, you have to go to something called an archive node. But if you just go to an infura and say, give me an archive node, I’m going to query it, then you’re dealing with the centralized providers, so your users have basically now, and it’s a vector to shut down their interface for interacting with Ethereum right. So they’re not going to be able to get that data, the infura says, Hey, I’m not serving this data anymore. So because the theory is an unstoppable platform for smart contracts, it’s also really nice to put your website on IPFS. And to pull historical data from The Graph. Now, if you do all of these things, you slowly become an unstoppable interface for not just for the smart contract side, but also for the client. And for the data that you’re reading from Ethereum. So The Graph is a really important project, I think, I don’t know anybody else who’s a competitor of theirs that has any traction in the Ethereum community, as well, they’re going cross chain, I think The Graph is here to stay. And I think they’re going to be a powerhouse in the ecosystem. Because it’s a very technical thing they’re doing, they have a really good technique The Graph does. So I just, I feel like it’s a great project, the great hold as a coin, I still have a bad job of curating. Try to make sure that the subgraphs we push out, have GRT graded on them.

16:16
I want to ask you more about your curation experience. But before I do, why not create your own archive node and just do this for yourself, like what prevents a user of The Graph from just creating their own in house solution, right?

16:27
So we could do that what it is, it’s more robust. And it’s really hard to center it. So it’s a decentralized network of Indexers that serve data. So it’s really hard for a government to show up at somebody’s house and say, hey, you can’t provide Ethereum of data that people anymore. But somebody could go to Infura and say you’re shut down. And then nobody can use Ethereum of frontend. So then everyone would have to deploy their own. And then it becomes a question of, how do you it’s it just, it just becomes a problem for the entire ecosystem, everyone has the benefit of one by one. And then some solutions will be good. Maybe some people can hack my service and send back fake results, tricking people into doing things in the UI, but I think many in ways that they wouldn’t expect. So it is it’s a serious issue. I remember I was interacting with a protocol was at the UI was giving me the wrong data. So I did something that was actually not what I would do if I had the correct information. So it is a very important issue for users.

17:42
So how important is The Graph? And you kind of touched on this a little bit, but how important would you say The Graph is to Synthetix, and Kwenta?

17:50
It’s a it’s a critical part of our infrastructure, as much as almost as much as area but not to the same level, obviously, that’s like our, our foundational layer. But yeah, just like, you know, a browser is really important for users. I think The Graph is like, sort of like a really important toolkit for any Ethereum developer.

18:45

So you wrote the or rather you develop the subgraphs for Synthetix. And I would love to know a little bit about what it’s like to write a subgraph. How would you describe what a subgraph is? And what’s the process of going about creating one?

19:45
Sure. So yeah, a subgraph is basically a way for a developer to take Ethereum of data and sort of massage it into the format that they need in order to efficiently request that data from their interface. So like from Kwenta.io, we have to show certain datas like transaction history. So a subgraph is a really nice way to look at all the transactions people have submitted. And to take it and to save it in a way that’s usable for us. Right. And also to aggregate it. So we don’t want a user to log in and like, have to read all of Ethereum and then aggregate data or do certain things, we want it to be like this, like you open the app, and it just loads, it has all the fields, everything’s pre calculated and stored. So a nice way to do that is to have a back end database, which basically has like all of the entities that you need pre-formatted, and you just request them, and then you serve it to the app. So The Graph is basically a database. It’s not, it’s not like you’re just taking the data from Ethereum and certainly you can pull the data the theory and just save it in the same format. But most people like want to name their entities when I like maybe combined different entities on I like say, give me the daily volume for Kwenta every day, like the last 30 days and create a chart. So if you want to do that, it becomes very difficult if you don’t have the data stored in a table, where it’s already kind of like inputted as here’s today’s volume. And then if the days are going and you make a trade, it just adds it to that column as like, it adds whatever. So if you have a million dollars of volume that day, then you have another million dollar trade come in that row of the table just updates the 2 million a new query directly instead of having to get every transaction that happens from the client that day and then do the calculation in the client.

21:56
What’s your experience been as a Curator in The Graph, who actually signals GRT, on a subgraph, they develop?

22:04
So I think it’s common, I think, you know, if you’re at a protocol where it’s popular, so a lot of queries are gonna come your way, it only makes sense to curate early, but there are bots on the curation network that actually made a lot of profit off of our curation. So when we deployed ours, I went to go to curate, and I saw the amount of shares I would get, and then it was like a third less by the time I actually got it to go through, because you have slippage. And there’s all these things that going on in the UI, that actually make it a little bit difficult to beat the boss or to even get your curation. And that being said, like, I’m still glad I did it. It’s so far, I expect it to grow as Synthetix. Right now, we’re not even using our subgraph on the decentralized network. We’re still testing it out, though we haven’t hooked up the depth yet. But once the query started coming in, I expect a lot more people to think you’re right on the subgraph.

23:08
What’s your advice to listeners that want to be a Curator and don’t necessarily have the technical capabilities that you personally have?

23:16
Yeah, look, I would say just be a Delegator. Probably because being a Curator, it’s complicated. There’s all sorts of rules. And if you’re playing games against bots, you’re probably going to get fleeced, or lose, even if you don’t lose big, you probably won’t win. So I would say that you could play the game, but study a lot before you do.

23:42
What’s the experience you’ve personally had in interacting with members of The Graph community, whether it’s Indexers or people helping you maybe early on setting up the Synthetix subgraphs and things like that?

23:53
Well, The Graph is a very close friend of Synthetix. I believe the founders of Synthetix are seed investors to The Graph. So oh, also, Justin, who’s sort of the one of the lead core contributors, he is on The Graph Council. So we’re very close with them. And we provide a lot of feedback, as we see things that or if we have questions, we ask questions. We have a private channel with The Graph, even though it’s been very good, and their developers are very qualified. So they always know the answer to all the questions, which is pretty great.

24:32
So as the guy who is very interested in DeFi, you already said that something that kind of excites you? It makes sense. You’re working on Synthetix, and Kwenta, which are DeFi products. How does The Graph fit into in your own mind? How does The Graph fit in to the DeFi world? Is it an important piece of instructor structure? Is there going to need to be something like The Graph for DeFi to exist?

24:56
Yeah, so like I said, with the unstoppable back end aka Ethereum, nobody can really change your Ethereum data like, they’d have to have your private key, right. So, as a user, you want to make sure that it’s not just the backend that secure you want your front end to be secured to. And like I said, part of that is getting quality data in a in an efficient way. So, you know, it’s really hard to do that with centralized service providers. It just, it’s not reliable. You know, any, any person in the world can live in a country where they decide to center the applications that you interact with. So if they do that, then how are you going to make sure that you can use the protocol that you’ve been using, right? Like this is your money at work, and you don’t want people to take that away from you. So it’s not the same as Ethereum, where it’s like an unstoppable source of data that you’re submitting transactions to. But the read side is equally important as the right side. As I said before, it’s very important for any application to have quality data that is uncensorable, and unhackable. So The Graph does a really good job of that. And it’s a great solution to a problem. And it’s a very difficult problem to solve. That’s why The Graph is really the only team that I’ve seen with a solution right now, in the market that’s usable.

26:35
I like to ask people I interview that are in the DeFi space. How DeFi impacts everyday people. So you’re in the space, you’re a technical guy, you understand a lot about DeFi that, you know, your friends and family may not. But yet in a DeFi environment, maybe they benefit in ways that they don’t understand or would appreciate. How would you describe the everyday person’s benefit in a DeFi world?

27:02
It’s a very complex topic, right? Because you could say that the traditional financial markets really take advantage of people in terms of like, you know, you’re always basically losing a little bit when you’re trading against Wall Street, if you’re doing call options, or, or whatever, you’re going through your provider. And you don’t really know, like, what you’re getting, or how the other side is beating you on the train, I feel like a lot of people lose in ways they don’t understand, to very complicated actor. Now, you could say Ethereum solves that, because it provides a very open, transparent ecosystem. Also, you’re not dealing with people who are siphoning fees off of off the top, you’re dealing with bots and computers that basically only require a small amount of money to process that, right. But when you get into it, there’s Miner Extractable Value. There’s all sorts of complicated things going on in Ethereum. So, you know, I really don’t think the way I think of Ethereum is like, it’s building free and open financial system. My biggest takeaway is like, what’s the biggest benefit to the world? Forget about it, like an individual person. It’s like, it allows for freedom to exist in the world. And the reason why I think that is because

28:39
let’s say you took away cash from the world today. So if you only had electronic money, they’ve already kind of talked about this in a few places. But like, what does that look like? Like look at China, right? You have, basically, everything is tracked. They know everything you do, you have a score, which will go up or down based upon the activities that you do, or the things that you buy. So if you buy things that the government doesn’t like, they could really shut you out of society. So how do you escape that you have to have a way to have money exists outside of the control of a centralized party, like the government. Now cash is great cash allows for freedom today. But you’ve already kind of seen people without understanding what it means be like, we don’t need cash anymore cash is old. All right, like let’s all switch to digital stuff. So in a world where there’s like a CBDC, where there’s no crypto and no cash, that’s like, not a free world in my opinion. But at the same time cash is like old news. I don’t think cash is really that great. But I’d be fine with getting rid of cash as long as we have crypto because it might opinion, if you don’t have crypto, you lose economic freedom. And from there it spirals into this dystopian nightmare. So I think it’s I think it’s essential for freedom. And then beyond that, I think, you know, the goal, whether we’re there today or not, is to create all these financial primitives that can be the foundation of finance for the entire world. And my take on it is like, will China itself use all these protocols? Probably not, but they’re very heavy into blockchain, automation of finance, like, they see the benefits of like having instant transactions, or trust, like not having a single bank control everything. Maybe it’s that bank, but they have like 10,000 computers around the country that are secured, right. So it’s very hard to hack into it. And yet, all the other countries aren’t going to want to interface with China’s blockchain. So the US can have their blockchain, but how are they going to do trade international trade via these automated systems, it’s all going to pass through Ethereum In my opinion, so I view Ethereum is kind of like the global settlement layer where like, as things flow in and out of different countries, it’ll all happen Ethereum will be kind of like the middle where like the middle layer for all, all international trade, and then when you have a free country, like the US or you know, Europe, or different parts of the world, those citizens can use Ethereum too, and you can choose to, you know, use a coin base where you like, give them your funds, or you can custody your own funds. And I think what’s going to happen in the near future is beyond just like getting rid of these middlemen on wall street that like Reagan, so many of the fees for the financial system, you’re gonna have way better products, you’re gonna have way better apps, way more investment opportunities. And you’ll see novel products coming out like NFTs social clubs, like it’s just, it’s a blank canvas, and people are painting on it. And in traditional finance is really hard to innovate. Because you have a lot of regulations, you have a lot of costs, you have everything is siloed, right. So if Bank of America invests in some really cool financial product, and Citi group created something entirely different, those who live in their own world, but in Ethereum, you can have a UI that kind of brings both those elements together. Or you could build a third contract that kind of ties those together, and then build something entirely new that you never even thought possible before.

32:51
So I just think that like, the sky’s the limit in terms of innovation. And when you have so much innovation, it’s inevitable to me that the world will use the best products eventually. So eventually everyone in the world will be using crypto products. And I don’t I don’t think Ethereum is the only chain that’s going to win. I think it’ll be the biggest. But I also think Bitcoin is here to stay. I think there’s some long term security issues that they need to figure out if it’s not going to be a transactional hub. Because as the mining reward for mining blocks goes down, and transaction fees need to go up in order to sustain the mining power. I think that that’s going to be a problem maybe but I still think Bitcoin is going to be around for a lot of time. It takes a lot it will do really well. I think, you know, projects like The Graph like Chainlink, like Thorchain are all gonna do very well in this cross chain world that will continue to grow. But I do think in Ethereum is kind of like the kind of like the sun that sucks in all the gravity that the whole thing revolves around.

34:12
David Schwartz, and I’m a Curator at The Graph. If my conversation with GRTiQ Podcasts has been helpful to you, then please consider supporting future episodes by becoming a subscriber. Visit GRTiQ.com slash podcast for more information. That’s GRTiQ comm slash podcasts and thank you for listening.

34:43
You’ve hit on this a couple times. And I just wanted to make one more pass at it. And it’s this idea of why it’s so important for people like Synthetix and Kwenta to use a decentralized partner to query data from the chain. So can you just kind of hit on that, again of why it’s so important to have a decentralized solution for that service?

35:06
Yeah. So let’s say you go to kwenta.io. And you’re looking at your transaction history, or let’s say you go to, you go to stat.synthetix.io, and you’re looking at historical data for the protocol, how much volume has there been? What’s happening in the ecosystem over the last week, and a lot of times people make trading decisions based upon their data, or they need their transaction history for taxes. So you really need to have historical data in order for your app to be usable to be understandable to gain insights for users. And you can’t have that data be vulnerable to being shut down or inaccessible, write or to have the wrong data. And The Graph does a really good job of providing an ecosystem for having that data in the right format that you need it in that secure and provided by unidentifiable parties all over the world. So it’s kind of like unstoppable data in the sense that if theory was unstoppable contracts, but you’re not like, you’re going to write your data to Ethereum, and then you’re going to read it. It’s still the Ethereum data. But you’re, you’re storing it in The Graph with the Indexers and reading it from them.

36:35
As I understand it, as a non-technical person. Ethereum and other chains are not inherently searchable. They’re not well constructed databases. And so somebody needs to come along and play that liaison role. Do I have that right? Or where do I have it wrong?

36:53
No, that’s right. So the goal of an Ethereum node is not to have people query all the data, right? It’s to make sure that the latest head is up to date, and that the network can be thick, you know, that your transaction can be settled, they pass on the responsibility for providing data to interfaces. There’s something called an archive node, which has all of that historical data that you can request from now the archive node is useful. But like I said, you’re going to a centralized party and saying, hey, you have to manage this infrastructure, it’s not easy to manage it. It’s like, I don’t know how many terabytes or whatever, it’s, it’s a lot of data, right? So you need to have full uptime on it very data intensive server. And to do that, it’s not easy, right? Synthetix has an infrastructure guy that we run our own for our internal development process. But having somebody like Infura is very helpful for the ecosystem. That being said, you know, it’s expensive to use impure archive nodes. And on top of that, they could be shut down at any time, and then everyone in the ecosystem would have this scramble for another solution, which kind of like the solution for that problem is The Graph. So now you have data that’s not just formatted like an archive node, but you have control as a developer, for how the data is saved in the backend. It’s kind of like you’re creating your own back end. And you’re saving things exactly the way you want it. And you’re querying them exactly the way you want to query them. But you don’t have to run the infrastructure that’s taken care of by a decentralized set of Indexers.

38:45
David, thank you so much for your time and telling us more about Synthetix and Kwenta, if people are interested in following you or learning more about what you’re working on, what’s the best way to do it?

38:54
I go by Alextheboredape on Twitter, that people can follow me there. People can follow Kwenta on Twitter. I think that’s a really good Avenue. You can join the Kwenta Discord. If you go to Kwenta.io. There should be a link to that. Look, I think we’re at the very early stages of on-chain derivatives. And Kwenta will be sort of one of the early scaling solutions using optimism, which will be a Layer 2 solution for Ethereum that uses optimistic roll ups and we’re very confident that our product once we switch to L2 will be much better than the current l one experience where you have to pay and save fees for everything. So our goal is to provide a trading experience where you can use derivative products like futures or shorts, or even just entering into Synthetix assets like sETH or sBTC. Without pay The egregious slippage fees that you might pay on other exchanges. So, you know, right now it’s a little bit expensive to use Kwenta but we are launching, using optimistic Ethereum exchanging, it’s going to be limited to a few assets at the start, but over time, we’ll be adding more and more since then we’ll add future products in the near future. And also short as well will be available and now too, as well.