Episode 28: Today I’m speaking with Carl Hagerling, Co-Founder and Design Lead at Edge & Node. You may not know Carl, or perhaps you haven’t heard his name before, but you’ve definitely admired his work – Carl is the designer who created The Graph’s logo and brand.
My conversation with Carl covers many interesting topics, including how he met the founders of The Graph, in the very early days, before they launched The Graph; his impressive professional background, including his experience providing world-class design work for some big brands like Ikea and Facebook; and something I know you will enjoy hearing and learning more about: how he approached and created The Graph’s logo and brand.
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As I said earlier, I think The Graph is a democratic way of handling data. And it’s going to be a vibrant platform of information that’s useful, accurate and reliable. And I believe in that so much.
Welcome to the GRTiQ podcast. Today I’m speaking with Carl Hagerling, Co-founder and Design Lead at Edge & Node. You may not know Carl, or perhaps you haven’t heard his name before, but you’ve definitely admired his work. Carl is the designer who created The Graphs logo and brand. My conversation with Carl covers many interesting topics, including how he met the founders of The Graph in the early days before they started The Graph, his impressive professional credentials, providing world class design work for some of the world’s largest brands. And something I know you will enjoy hearing and learning more about how Carl approached and created The Graphs logo and brand. As always, I started the conversation by asking Carl about his background.
So I started too long, I would say if I can summarize it shortly, but I have two educations: one within like Media Design and wonder within Industrial Design. So first, I have like a bachelor in Media Design. And I was 18. Starting at that time, it was just I had first iMac generation 1998. And I use like illustrator eight. And what was really good with that school was like I had internships, I had the opportunity to go out to real working environments and talk to real users. And that’s what I learned the most from doing. And then it was also the big crash there like the IT boom, it collapsed in a linear way. And I always felt like web design or web development was not the real thing. So at the time, I didn’t consider like web development to be a real profession. So I wanted to go into the from software that didn’t feel like it was just my hobby to create websites and other things into like a real job doing hardware design. So then I applied for like an industrial design program in Lund, Sweden. And they accepted me and it was a five year education. And it felt great to do real product. Also, I am still passionate about physical objects. But at that school, I think I developed my creative side, I met so many other talented creatives. And we lived like a world or started really close to each other. So it was a place where you can collaborate. And yes, grow as a person. And that’s where I evolved my form language. Because is produced, produced, produced designs. And the more you produce, the more you get to know like yourself and what you like and why you don’t like things. And you have your friends also like providing feedback harsh and honest. And I still hang out with some of the friends from that time. I guess also, during that time, I developed like a reliable design process. Because like design isn’t art in a way. And sometimes it’s hard to predict like when to when you will create the masterpiece. When do you have that source of inspiration that just kicks in? But I somehow managed to rely on that, like I will always have like find some source of inspiration. I will always hit the deadline somehow. And that is really good especially when you’re working in real environments and not in school, then it’s always hitting deadline hitting deadlines. I would say also like for a while there may be before studying I thought like you are going to run out of ideas. So maybe I hold my ideas close to myself. But as time passed, I like realized No, I will not run out of ideas and ideas are better shared Because they grow, and so much more open nowadays, and collaborative, and it’s more much more fun the design process if you’re sharing instead of like, introverted.
So with all that said, then Carl, why is it that you decided to pursue a career in design?
Okay, so I started, like seven years of design in total. So that’s a long time. But I think that what I’ve learned most from is actually my parents, I had an amazing family growing up, I have the luxury because my father had his own business. So that always felt like this kind of go your own path, create something you believe in. I had that from growing up. And I know, like, I had the luxury. And I know a lot of people don’t have this, but I have, I know like, if something doesn’t work out in my life, I know I have my family as a safety net, Maybe, that makes me risk a little bit in life. And I know, they will lift me up. If I fall. I hope that’s something I can give to my kids also, that they have some safety net. But so they can be adventurous and take risks, and follow their dreams. And boats from an artist like my father, he had his own company running, he had his business running from home. So I always had like computers around. And in the beginning, maybe it was more mostly computer games. But then after a while, like, we started to design our own computer games, my brother and myself. But back then maybe we did like the Duke Nukem, they had a map editor. And then maybe I started to create my own maps, and made my own textures, and my own weapons. And then I wanted to do t shirts with prints with the designs. And then I also do using illustrator to do that. And then I had to have a web page to showcase my designs. And then had to learn like web design. And that’s one thing led to another but it’s all started with, I think my parents setting the foundation for creation and giving us computers at an early age.
Well, you’re joining me from Sweden, and I always take the opportunity when I interview guests of the podcast to find out what their home countries attitude is towards crypto. So what are the people of Sweden’s attitudes towards crypto right now?
So I must say first, Sweden is amazing. I love this country. And I will probably stay here until I die. But they don’t like crypto. I don’t know why they’re so afraid of it. But I cannot have it like a Swedish bank or banks blocked crypto trading. So I cannot for a while I had no salary because I couldn’t bring it to Sweden. So I was I don’t know I had to leave on my wife salary. Yeah, it was tough, because I couldn’t get my salary. And it’s so frustrating. And whatever. I feel like I’m a criminal right now working for a crypto project. But it’s nothing illegal about it. And I understand that they are like afraid of like people trading weapons and money being black, not clean. But it’s affecting a lot of other people also doing good things, trying to make great products. So I hope things will be better here. Moving on.
Carl, what can you tell us about then some of the work you did professionally in your design career?
So in the town where I studied Industrial Design, it was learned, and that’s where Sony mobile or Ericsson had their headquarters. And this was during the time when like, the mobile industry like it was exploding. And I think like Sony mobile was the second biggest producer of mobile phones after Nokia. So which was a major place for Industrial designer phones, and they went to all creative there. So I joined Sony mobile, and it was such an amazing time to be there. It was the same time as the launched the iPhone. And it was interesting to be there, whether people at Sony mobile, they were nervous, but still like they didn’t really try to push away the threat. And no one would really see it. And it was like too expensive phone and they didn’t see it, but I felt it that is going to change the world. Then I joined a hardware design agency called Hareide design. And it was the former chief designer at Saab automobile, who led that Einar Hareide and there I had an opportunity to design like big scale projects. And I always imagined myself to design smaller pieces of the objects, but here I was like designing train interiors, truck front wheels and transportation design. And it was really challenging because there’s a lot of people that are really passionate about transportation design, and I wasn’t one of them. But maybe that was good because it came with it or like another point of view. So it’s challenging, and I learned a lot. And I met great people. And if you collaborate with great people, you grow yourself as well. After working at Hareide design, I formed my own agency called Hagerling Form based off my last name, Hagerling. And then I did that for some years and years went all creative. It felt like I will have been like in a not in a bubble, but I just want to try all creative fields outside. And other fields as well. I did everything I wanted, like I had like 50 clients at the same time and I created a furniture brand. Well, I started to manufacture and sell like shelves. I did a lot of like furniture concepts, I was awarded the break throughout the year by this British magazine get like a big office space. So I sort of rent out office spaces to other creatives. So we had this environment where we just did a lot of different things. I had clients as big clients, and one big client was IKEA inherited a lot of furnitures for them, and a lot of objects and garden tools. And a lot of them are still sold. Everything worked out very well. Therefore, while I had everything I had my house, I had my car, my lovely wife, and kids and work. But I guess like I would like to challenge myself even more. So my wife and I we started talking about what can we do next. And we’ll talk about moving abroad because she does research within breast cancer. And thanks to her, we had the opportunity to go to move to San Francisco. And I got my visa through her. So thank you amazing wife, Catarina. And my intent moving there was to work for Google. But things so things change in life. And in the same building we moved to, there was another Swedish guy. And he recommended me to apply for this job at MuleSoft. I never heard about the MuleSoft at the time, but I thought okay, I’ll give it a shot. And when I worked there, I it was an atmosphere I haven’t never been in before and it was creative, it was warm. And I really enjoyed my time there and I met great people. And some of the people there was actually like Yaniv. And I remember the first day I met him, I saw something in there him and like I think the same evening went to a bar. And I said we’re going to do great things together. And we’re going to build and then it was more about React systems and build components in React to create a nice platform for MuleSoft. And we did that. But I didn’t expect that we would do even more greatness together. And at that time at MuleSoft. That’s when I found my love in designing complex data systems or platforms.
And then Tesla reached out to me and asked if I would like to join their team. And it was so hard to say no to that because it was more compelling product. I thought at the time because I was going to be the responsible for their before UX on the energy side. And growing up our family was one of the first families in Sweden to having solar panels on the roof. My father is really into like green energy. And here I had the opportunity to work at Tesla in the forefront there and inside designing the app and the user experience. So it was too hard to say no to that. And at Tesla It was so great people smart engineers. But I never felt creatively that I’ve built it. It was not that atmospheric with other creatives. I was more like doing it by myself. I had the opportunity to work with a great intern, but I wanted more creative challenges. And then Facebook reached out to me. And they said we starting up this lab like the moonshot factory where I’m going to be responsible for the industrial design and the UX design that crossover. And I got to work with some of the best creative, former IDEO employees. And it felt like okay, I’m here in San Francisco with the most creative minds. And I have the opportunity to work in the forefront with other creative minds and learn so much. So it was in there from so going from Tesla, where I will work more in isolation, to work at Facebook, where I can grow as a creative much more, it was hard to say no to that. And it’s I don’t know, its fun. But now looking back in the mirror like now I work in an industry where Facebook is seen as one of the nightmares with a centralized data, and they control your data. And I guess I’ve been naive in a way, at the time I privatized exploring my creativity more and grew as a creative. But I still think like what Facebook done, they have, like, received a lot of bad reputation, and they’re doing great stuff also. And that’s a lot of times that’s not seen by the industry, or people or after the Cambridge Analytical scandal. And at the time, I worked for Facebook Yaniv, Janice, and Bradon the kicked off The Graph, and we talked about me joining them. So the first thing I did, I moved back to Sweden, left San Francisco, and back in Sweden. I joined The Graph.
What is the guy with a lot of background? High level background at Facebook, Tesla working on projects for IKEA? What is the guy like you think about crypto when you first encounter it?
So the first time I encountered crypto, it was not like I was like a Bitcoin owner. It was like when Yaniv pitched the idea behind The Graph and express like to index blockchain data. And I even didn’t even think that it would be a problem back then. But he pulled me into it. He pitched it really well is really visionary is a great mind and person. And what I think about crypto, so maybe it’s similar to like IKEA. Their slogan is democratic design or something like that. And like crypto and decentralized protocols, they it’s democratic. Its gives the users ownership. They own the data. And anyone can participate. As long as you have internet. It’s a more reliable and it’s cheaper. And yeah, I’m not a technical expert. So I don’t know the technology behind but I believe in so much. Because it’s Yeah, democratic.
So what can you tell us about the energy of the founders early on before The Graph even came along? I mean, what can you tell us about those early days and I guess, entrepreneurial vision.
So we have great minds. Like if I ask good to Yaniv, he is a visionary. He has his finger on the pulse. Like 30 years from now. He feels what’s going on. And Brandon that is so thoughtful, and does the research and he’s one of the smartest person I’ve ever met, and a great human being. And Janice who’s the best engineer I worked with back end, and a great person. And also so humble, in a way. And I think that mixture is creating this. They are very humble, and smart, and expecting the best from everyone. And I think that pulling out the best capacity of everyone, at least that’s what I feel. And I think that’s rare in the industry to be able to work for like it’s a mature company, they have people working for it, it’s mature, they have a lot of experience, but they’re still humble and open and friendly. And that’s really nice to be in that culture.
Were you nervous to make the move from traditional business with, again, a lot of credentials doing really great design work into crypto, which is really a new sector, and a startup with some guys that you met here in San Francisco.
I wasn’t ever afraid. Because I trusted, like Yaniv and Brandon and Janice so much. So I wouldn’t say I was afraid at all. Like, the only thing is like when you have to explain to the people around you what you’re working with? And they just question marks. And maybe they would expect you to do like a safer career move.
How would you describe your role at The Graph and Edge & Node what you do on a day to day basis there.
So it’s a working away, it’s a bit in transition, because I’ve been an IC for a long time is producing producing content. And as the team grows, I have a great team. Helped me out. So it’s more a more of a manage now, so I’m going from IC to a manager. And so my day to day life is more like I start the morning with a great coffee, I need that coffee. Then after the coffee I check Slack because the great thing about different time zones is like we worked with four hours a day It feels like that’s when I woke up, I have a lot of questions in in Slack or in my mail or in Figma as we use as a design tool, a cycle comments try to provide feedback that takes like more or less half my day, just providing feedback to different work streams, and just generate the ideas and proposals. Maybe what if what if we do this way? What do we give to this? So I try to be as creative and open as possible. And then the next part is creating new features, new exciting projects, because it’s so much things going on at The Graph that I would like to tell you about that’s coming out. But I guess like we could talk about that in maybe one year. But that’s my day to day life.
So I want to talk about the brand of The Graph. You join early. Obviously Brandon Yaniv Janis, they’re all coming up with what I would understand is the product and the technology. But they need a guy like you to come along with, I presume, input on the UX, but also building the brand. So can you take us through your thought process what was going through your mind, you’ve already mentioned, you kind of like the idea of being a designer for complex systems. And so this is very complex, and in a lot of ways that The Graph is so talk to us about that challenge. And what your original vision as you were thinking through The Graph for its brand.
So when, when joining The Graph is I had the luxury because we had nothing, we had no logo, we had no brand we had, it was just the name, The Graph. And that is a luxury to be able to shape everything is like a white canvas. But that could also be terrifying. And limiting is like, do whatever you want. Where do you start, you have to like anchor yourself somewhere. So that’s the first thing I did anchor myself. And then together with the other like it was just Yaniv and Brandon and Janice at the time and also Rodrigo was a great mind. Then we formed some keywords, what is it all about? And it could be like, solid, it could be adventurous, pioneers, soft words like that. But one of the words was like infrastructure, and a pivoted towards infrastructure. And so it like, it felt like The Graph has always been around even if it was new, because it’s felt so not monolithic, but solid. And it seems like it’s almost like the matrix like everything around us is the matrix and you’re in it and so The Graph similar so I went back in time. Looked like in old civilizations. And they’re because the infrastructure cannot connect them and defines them, like roads, waters systems. And that drove me towards like the Aztec civilization. And I asked, it was something about that, I think looked at just gravitating towards me, I do so much inspiration there. So create this kind of pattern inspired by the hieroglyphic carvings, architecture and art that felt like, I don’t know, there’s a pattern of communication of small digits floating into a system. And that was kind of the starting point. They also have a garden, the Aztec civilization. Like for symmetry, I don’t remember the name for him. But the God of duality, and the two things it also had, everything has two sides. And that’s also I really like that visually. But then they don’t get it was not just about the infrastructure. And the duality, it was also about that they had a really strong sense for astronomy, and the space and the calendar. So they look down in the infrastructure, but it wasn’t looked up in space, out in the stores. And that kind of dynamic like, space, and old. Space is like the future forward. And then you have the infrastructure. That’s kind of the past. So the old meets the new. So it feels like it’s always been around, but it’s facing the future. So if you look at the, like the colors come there, purple, blue, that comes from space. And you have the iconoThe Graphy that comes more from the Aztec hieroglyphics. And if you look at the logo, it’s actually like a planet, with a spaceship, and Moon orbiting around. So that is the story with the brand of The Graph more or less.
So you said originally, when you were coming up with the idea for the brand and had the white canvas, you had to anchor yourself what do you mean by that? What do you mean by you need to anchor yourself?
Yeah, because I had to anchor myself otherwise create whatever the color spectrum, it could be everything from red to green. But I had to find a story to connect with. That’s felt like honest to the value of the company. And that’s why I had to anchor myself.
Carl, what are some of the challenges then, in addition to a blank canvas, which you said is a great opportunity, but also a little bit of a challenge for a designer? What is the additional challenge of trying to create a brand and imagery and messaging for something that is quite complex, like The Graph.
So what I’m facing right now, the horse, for me is consistency. And brand is all about consistency. It’s being its like The Graph is a person and a person, okay, it could change the personality, but it doesn’t make the change of the personality from one week to another, maybe take some years. And you can see this slowly change. And it was whenever she asked me, I produce all content, because we were much smaller, like a year ago. But now we bigger when we collaborate with more people, the community is big. So the brand scales up. And that means they have to be defined the brand better. And this is something we need, because we’ve been working a lot hard to create a product that’s usable. And it demands a lot. So I have what’s challenging for me now is to define the brand better. And you can do this in like in the brand book with some style guides. So you can easily explain to other people, this is the rules for our personality, our brand. So that is a challenge right now, for me.
You say that a brand is like a person it has a personality. Let’s play with that idea. Just for a second here. If The Graph brand became personified, and this individual walked into the room, how would you describe or how would you let us know what this person is like?
So that is a great question. And I think we should talk more about it internally. But what I imagine is, The Graph is a smart person that’s thoughtful, but not cocky. And in a way, like, like I mentioned like, is our baseline exhibit of the founders humble and joyful pioneers. Like a humble pioneer maybe casual, but also a little bit well dressed up. It’s also on how, how you talk as a person. So maybe it’s like the, like a person with that can speak for himself or herself really well. And a nice person.
Is that person optimistic?
Yes, very and brave, and also high integrity, and stick to his or her beliefs.
Hi, Carl Hagerling. co founder and I’m a contributor at The Graph. If my conversation with the GRTiQ podcast has been helpful to you, then please consider supporting future episodes by becoming a subscriber GRTiQ to the podcast for more information GRTiQ
Carl, I’d be curious to know if you ever had any hesitation about using the space theme for brand development or creation of The Graph when a lot of people on Twitter or certainly in the crypto space at large talk about mooning when it comes to price discussion and things like that. Were you were you nervous about any correlation there?
No, I actually I never thought about it. And maybe it’s because I’m Swedish. I never heard the expression. But that my big concern is like, the space could be a little bit cliche, like you surfing the web, this old cliche. And here we are like with the sometimes using an astronaut on a snowboarder in space or something or wakeboard in space. And I would rather go back lately, it’s more to Earth that we’re looking up. So we’ve feel more grounded than being up in space. But I like the contrast of being grounded and looking up in space.
What you leveraged Aztec civilization to create the brand. And I love what you said about the logo and this tie between infrastructure and space, staying grounded, but looking out to potential and opportunity. What do you think, a project like The Graph, a brand like The Graph says about civilization presently, where we’re going, what we’re working on, what our opportunities for the future are?
That’s a great question, because and I think we’re creating the new civilization, Web 3. Crypto blockchain is a new civilization. That’s more democratic, as I mentioned. And we it’s more fair, we don’t see color, we don’t see race. We see what you can provide to the space to the protocol or the project. We’re all about collaboration and openness, and transparency. And that’s value pillars that I would like to stand on and build the next civilizations.
As a designer, Karl, do you have any consternation? Does it make you nervous or upset that everything at The Graph is open source? And so your logo and all the work and effort you put into that? It shows up everywhere, right on people’s Twitter feeds on people’s website? Or was that just part of understanding this new environment? And that this would kind of come along with it? How have you thought through that?
That’s really interesting. Yeah, because people do build on top of what I did this, but I started in a way. And in the beginning, we had no like, for example, like no character that’s belong to our life brand. But then I put the astronaut in one on the jobs page. And it was just the community has took that and brought it to themselves, and then just ran with it. So it was like, astronauts everywhere, like if you looked at this Discord, and on Twitter, everything was rockets and astronauts in space. And I guess the I went with it then continued the space, the main push for that either her harder, but something maybe that disappeared was the Aztec foundation that I said, and now it’s more about the space. And I guess things like that happen when you have a strong community and in the crypto when you build on top of each other. And maybe this ties back to what I said earlier, like, collaboration is so amazing, and it’s powerful. And it brings us further. It’s like keeping your ideas by yourself or sharing them
So I want to ask you a follow up question about The Graph community. So as somebody who met the founders and you kind of being early on in the whole project, creating the brand out of nothing, what’s it been like for you seeing this community build up and get so engaged in the project?
Yeah, so I’ve been in many, like, a lot of different companies. But I’ve never been in a company like Edge & Node, or The Graph. Because it’s been such a momentum since day one. And such an interest in our product, and the community members are, it’s a vibrant community. And it’s like an engine, it’s encouraging you, you’re excited you’re joining you’d like to do with them. And that keeps me up every morning. That makes me Yes, work harder and do more great things and do better things for them because they deserve it. And I pushed myself to do better designs.
You and I met each other a little while ago, we had to go through some planning and scheduling to get this recording. A lot of things have happened since then curation launched other big announcements with core dev teams, as you look back on all the creative things you’ve done at The Graph, from present, to when you started, what are some of the things you’re most proud of as a designer as someone behind the build?
So the things I’m always most proud of, that never been built, or that haven’t been launched, it’s always the next thing you’re most proud of, at least that’s how I work. And I can’t mention, but we have great things coming out and planned. But then maybe what I’m most proud of, maybe it’s just be able to work with such great people. Because they challenge me every day. And it’s such a hard space to be in. It’s so complex. So it’s always interesting. And I will also say that I’m really proud of my team. And the whole, all the new employees that The Graph. And I really hope that we can keep the culture that we have, and that we have such a great, so great talents within the team. And together we I think we set up to create greatness.
Carl, if you zoom out, and you look at all of crypto, so not just The Graph, but all of these different companies that fit within this space. What’s your sensibilities regarding design that’s going into it? I mean, is I’m nowhere near the designer you are, but I love graphic design. I’m very interested in brand design and a lot of things that you get to work on every day. And it seems to me that the crypto space is very unique in this regard. And the different things people are coming up with it. Are you seeing the same thing?
Yes, I am. So what I think is interesting is like, like it’s a new space. It is like visionaries, starting those projects. And it’s so many interesting products out there. And I think there was like a visionary when it comes to design. And they’re pushing it. And some projects are going really well like financially, so they have resources to hire really great designers. So I think that’s the combination there of being brave. And having the ability to hire great creative push the space really well. Something I think we can work more on is maybe UX patterns, I think we as a creative in the industry, we can do a better job with the UX patterns from because I know like for new users, they it’s a friction point that they have to get a wallet, they have to get some tokens or ETH. And before be able to participate. So it’s a friction point there. So like, could we unify that and all the transaction and create so it feels safer, reliable? So you don’t feel afraid? Performing a transaction? Yes, I would like to work on that, like unifying the UX patterns for Web 3 transactions.
Carl, I really appreciate the opportunity to have met with you and I was so anxious to meet you. I admire all your work. I really wanted to meet the mind and the team behind The Graph brand. And it’s personality. It’s so it was a real thrill for me when you agreed to do this, I think it’d be very interesting to ask the guy that helped launch the brand and the brand personality, what his long term vision for The Graph is,
As I said earlier, I think The Graph is a democratic way of handling data. And I think everybody should be able to be part of that movement. I want to make The Graph of better experience for new users to make it easier for them to delegate to curate, because that’s something everyone can do. And I think it’s so much opportunity there. And also like when we have all the data, collected more and more data at The Graph, you can do crossovers between subgroups. pull data from other sub The Graph, combine them, create your own sub The Graph. More and more people create their own sub The Graphs. And it’s going to be a vibrant platform of information that’s useful, accurate and reliable. And I believe in that so much.
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DISCLOSURE: GRTIQ is not affiliated, associated, authorized, endorsed by, or in any other way connected with The Graph, or any of its subsidiaries or affiliates. This material has been prepared for information purposes only, and it is not intended to provide, and should not be relied upon for, tax, legal, financial, or investment advice. The content for this material is developed from sources believed to be providing accurate information. The Graph token holders should do their own research regarding individual Indexers and the risks, including objectives, charges, and expenses, associated with the purchase of GRT or the delegation of GRT.